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Niamh seminar 19/8/2020 - Shared screen with speaker view
Savitri Taylor
18:03
Niamh would love to have your slides if you are willing to share Savitri (s.taylor@latrobe.edu.au)
Dora Anthony
30:45
Thanks Savitri, I’ve noted down your details for Niamh.
maria osullivan
44:14
i would also appreciate getting the power points thank u!
maria osullivan
44:51
I agree that automation has some benefits e.g. taking the subjectivity out of RSD. or limiting it
Kobi Leins
45:44
Q Niahm - when you talk about algorithmic decision-making, are you talking about the use of algorithms, or machine learning/neural nets (sorry - late to the meeting) - or both?
Markus Wagner
47:06
question about whether we as lawyers can design processes so as to overcome some of the problems you have laid out?
maria osullivan
47:14
Pintarich is not a good decn
maria osullivan
47:25
I liked Kerrs dissent in that case
maria osullivan
48:31
question about whether we can use automation to create COI assessments to partly automate RSD. to decide on risk.profiles
John Littrich
50:18
great work Niamh..I note the ALRC nominated 'Automated decision-making and administrative law' as one of it's topics for reform in Australia in 2020-25 in its 2019 report...but they seem to not really deal with refugee law specifically. I get the impression that the law is lagging way behind technology.
maria osullivan
50:34
I struggle with the tech too!
David Havyatt
50:54
An algorithm is any iterative rule set - the algorithm can be developed by a human, or an algorithm can be derived by the machine generating it.
Marett Leiboff
51:52
The designer will always build in assumptions and presumptions that are fundamentally problematic
David Havyatt
52:13
If you haven't stumbled across the book 'Weapons of Math Destruction' you will find examples in other sectors.
maria osullivan
52:21
Good point @John Littrich. I put this in a subm to the HRC Inq on a tech on hrts but I think a lot of people think that it's too far off
Kobi Leins
52:50
https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/ai-it-s-time-for-the-law-to-respond
Kobi Leins
53:39
More about Pintarich and framing here: https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/what-is-the-law-when-ai-makes-the-decisions
maria osullivan
55:08
can I plug my recent article on automation too? sorry! 😅 http://www.unswlawjournal.unsw.edu.au/article/revitalising-public-law-in-a-technological-era-rights-transparency-and-administrative-justice/
Kobi Leins
55:19
Yes please! : )
Yvonne Apolo
56:33
@Markus - I think that the emphasis on EthicsbyDesign, TrustbyDesign, PrivacybyDesign in Engineering/STEM opens up space for the engagement of lawyers in the front end. So long as a culture of multidisciplinarity iis present.
Kobi Leins
57:07
@Yvonne - not enough. Palantir is already in with the WFP sucking up data, which is then used by a number of govs (including biometric data) to reject refugee claims.
Kobi Leins
57:19
For those not familiar with Palantir, they've facilitated the ICE intervention in the US
Markus Wagner
57:47
@Yvonne - that strikes me as correct. The problem is that lawyers are often seen as naysayers. It's getting to be seen as constructive and not as destructive when the systems are close to being put in place
Pompeu Casanovas Romeu
59:29
There is an active community on Artificial Intelligence and Law: https://waset.org/artificial-intelligence-and-law-conference-in-june-2021-in-toronto
Kobi Leins
59:33
Not the right question. First question to always ask is: what is the benefit of this system? We can use this system, but SHOULD we use this system. WEapons of MAths Destruction by Cathy O'Neill is a great place to start with some of these questions.
Markus Wagner
59:35
@Niamh: following up on what Maria is saying: is there a way to divide things up between quantitative and qualitative data? I've had some fruitful debates about this in the past
Kobi Leins
59:41
Also the newly formed Australian Society for Computer Science and the LAw
Kobi Leins
01:00:02
https://www.linkedin.com/company/auscl/?originalSubdomain=au
Pompeu Casanovas Romeu
01:00:04
90% are computer scientists, with some lawyers and legal scholars. The community is growing now.
Terry Walter
01:00:19
Yes, the issue of life death raises the issue of Type I and Type II errors. The "cost" of classifying someone who is a genuine refugee as a non-refugee is considerably higher than the converse. Do any data sets exist where these AI's have been tested empirically?
Anthea Vogl
01:00:56
Hello all. Thanks for these excellent resources + the presentation. @Maria an interesting point about risk profiles, and recalls prima facie RSD which is under explored for many groups. Interesting to think about automation alongside prima facie determinations.
Kobi Leins
01:01:11
'Computer science communities are also disparate - Natural Language Processing ahead of Computer Vision and HCI, just to give an example. Comp Sci is quite divided into different camps of tools.
Kobi Leins
01:02:19
Also refer to Uber case - they're using the tort of conspiracy - the law isn't fit for purpose in certain cases - conspiracy is Uber 'jumping over' the existing requirements for taxi drivers
Kobi Leins
01:03:25
Also check out the work of the Centre for AI and Digital Ethics - an interdisciplinary centre at Uni Melb https://law.unimelb.edu.au/centres/caide
Kobi Leins
01:03:36
Genevieve Bell looking at this from more of an industry perspective at 3Ai
Kobi Leins
01:04:04
And Julia Powles (also a lawyer) just launched her Centre today at UWA
Gabriel Garcia
01:04:35
I have to go. Great presentation Niamh. Thanks Dora for organising this seminar
Kobi Leins
01:05:20
Also Centre for Excellence on automation led by Julian Thomas RMIT across multiple universities looking at lots of these topics - so lots of opportunities to jump into this space if anyone is interested.
maria osullivan
01:05:59
great point from @Andrea Vogl about using concept of prima facie RSD
John Littrich
01:07:33
Thanks Dora, thanks Niamh...sorry for leaving but I have to go to another meeting.
Kobi Leins
01:07:56
Re @Marett - there are times when AI should not be used - http://www.futureleaders.com.au/book_chapters/Artificial-Intelligence/Kobi-Leins.php
Jwana
01:08:08
Thank you for the presentation, very interesting, can you please send me the slides jwana@uow.edu.au
Erin Twyford
01:08:21
Thank you for a wonderful presentation
Kobi Leins
01:08:28
Thanks for the presentation - happy to chat more offline. K.
maria osullivan
01:08:49
fantastic, thank u!
pariz
01:08:54
Super interesting! Thank you so much!
Anthea Vogl
01:09:00
Many thanks!
Sarah Wright
01:09:01
Thanks Niamh